Gary Tatintsyan - on the world market of contemporary art, new trends, the phenomenon of «Asian Dragons», on promising areas for investment, and, of course, about the potentially troubling issues related to the financial crisis

conversation, part of which was included in the text of the interview began in the summer. That was a period of quiet business, which has happened to the analysis and some generalizations. Talked about the market of the world of contemporary art, new trends, the phenomenon of «Asian Dragons», on promising areas for investment, and, of course, about the potentially troubling issues related to the financial crisis. And on such a wide range of topics is difficult to find the other person is competent to Gary Tatintsyan - the owner of the same gallery Ilyinke of world-class contemporary art in Moscow.

ARTinvestment.RU : Your gallery has become one of the first to offer a modern Western art in our country, despite the fact that there has traditionally purchased mostly Russian art. As the market has changed over the past two years?

Gary Tatintsyan : To say that Russia is indeed a big market of modern Western art, it is impossible. There is a concern. Yet when we talk about the market, you have in mind a few dozen buyers who, in addition to the investment objectives, have a more objective replenish the collection. In the west they are called artlover, when passion becomes addiction, and people can not help but give this a couple of hours a day. Experience Saatchi as a collector had shown that people who do not just want to make art. After purchasing the work of an artist, you satisfy the curiosity, develop, make a directory. And in the end formed so quickly that sometimes the retention of the artist at his meaningless: you know about it even more than those of the say. In the process of self Saatchi happening so quickly that he loses interest, leaving me the best thing, and the rest sold. This is an example of a collector of high grade. Products of its activities remain catalogs and exhibitions. Saatchi did not understand: either he a collector, or dealer or speculator - a virtuoso, a genius who creates a market of interest to the artist. But take the thing, as some collectors to keep her in your bedroom until you die, and be proud that you are not sold - whether it? After all, the thing in isolation dies with him.

In Russia now dozens of collectors of contemporary art world - people who, over time bring their collections to a high-level, open space, naymut curators. Interest is growing in general - on the market come major financiers, such as Abramovich with his team and Larry Gagosyan.

AI: What would you have noted the trends and developments in the global marketplace of contemporary art?

GT: now hit - the Chinese art. The whole world is at a certain euphoria, and only say that it is a very nice art. At the same time I look at every job - but there is no intellectual provenansa, no exhibitions, in which it participated, few publications. Bought the work in the studio of the artist, came up for auction, sold for 3-5 million dollars. So I was not clear where there is such a delight and the price.

AI: Maybe it is a simulated auction promotion, treaty shopping?

GT : No, not the sale of artificial and real. We are not so long ago returned from China and did research on the two Chinese artists. One in the 2007-2008 period sold at auction for an amount more than 70 million dollars, and another 85 million at auction sales. When by chance, it happens one or two good sales. But the sales system, and it is a new work 2006-2008. Another matter, who built the system and what it is based? I prefer a system based on the intellectual activity, when the artist has gradually moved from the middle of the best galleries, arranged solo exhibitions of work included in major museum shows. Like Richard Prince (Prince Richard), as Mike Kelley (Mike Kelley), people who for 25 years on the market. Who buy and Americans and Europeans, and international dealers. And now, all mixed with the Chinese.

AI: What do you recommend to draw the attention of collectors and investors?

GT : When planning investments, you need to watch where the artist came out and where it goes. Age? Well, when the artist 35-40 years - is the age at which typically occurs very valuable creative period. However, for a career should not collectors, and gallery. Collectors importantly, in what the gallery has got, in which the participants were and what were auction prices. Then, it is important to look where the work is gone. Today's hip to buy something that is beginning to buy up François Pinault. All look the other. For example, the work of Rudolf Stingel (Rudolf Shtingel) and Anselm Reyle (Anselm Riley) is sharply increased in price. I think the fact that they are in the collection of Pinot in large quantities. As collectors know about this? Quickly, because the gallery does not hide who sold because eminent collectors contributed to the growth of their reputation.

AI: You watch the Biennale of Contemporary Art, held in Moscow? What you think about our contemporary artists?

GT : Our Bienniale I'm not interested. I wonder when the growing consciousness of the artist, a man working on a transition to another mental level, and our artists sound precedence over all else.

AI: Rational? You mean attitude to money?

GT : It is more important than money, and what to be. Our artists are still concerned with the questions: to whom it seems, as far as it seems? Money is also relevant. But I do not think that the case in the pursuit of money. Kulik , Dubossarskii grapes -- they have everything in order with the money. Just hard to get out of their skins. The various kinds of art is 2-3 icon painter, and the remaining providers of fashion. Dubossarskii Vinogradov and certainly recognizable, but another thing - how they evolve ... But, seriously, of course, make judgments about who and how quickly develops.

AI: Who among Western artists you particularly interested?

GT : I love art that is relatively underestimated. I recall a case where Damien Hirst (Damien Hurst), a year ago came to the exhibition in the gallery Ueddington in London and bought two works by the artist Peter Halley (Peter Helli), and one more work then I bought one of the brothers Chapman (Чепмэн). The works of the artist is now facing in the region of 100-150 thousand dollars, relatively inexpensive. But the creative potential of Halley had an impact on many. For example, the Sarah Morris (Sarah Morris), which is far more popular. But if you ask me today, whom would you collect, I would say - Peter Halley . And pay attention to artists, some of which pushed the young, but it is true intellectuals: Christopher Wool (Christopher Vul), and already referred to Rudolf Stingel. There, you can tell, the artists for artists. You look - like anything special. But we must realize that only when the Japanese look at the character, he is aware of his dignity. So the artist, looking at the picture of Christopher Wool. When the artists buying their work colleagues - it is a huge compliment artist test litmus paper. And then it does not matter who is what, in their place they all stand in a row.

For me, by the way, all artists, I chose one class: George Condo (George Condo), Jasper Johns (Jasper Johns), Damien Hirst (Damien Hurst), Pablo Picasso (Pablo Picasso), Alberto Giacometti (Alberto Giacometti) ... And the price - it is that determines the market. The price determines the amateur. There is, how much of it can pay. Some people have breakfast can cost hundreds of thousands. So he himself and Picasso can buy for 100 million, saving for breakfast.

AI: What do you think about the unfolding crisis? How serious a threat it has the market of art?

GT : You can imagine that some of the world's billionaires tomorrow will beg? Oligarchs? Well, they will be one less company. Works by major artists do not fall in the price. And can not fall. No people who replace. Anselm Reyle work was not to replace the sculpture Jeff Koons (Jeff Koons), although he does something pretty close. But not enough breadth, depth of understanding of the facility, discussions with hundreds of assistants, each of which invests its short opinion, and then in the end and is a powerful thing. Let the assistant, but they have a magician, Koons or Hirst. Each of them is not, of course, directly involved in the mechanical polishing of the things, but it creates it.

AI: The deep crisis in the market of art, in your opinion, unlikely?

GT : Yes. I recall, as we discussed with my friend turbulence in the markets, and he said that, you know, Garik will be a crisis, because that is all the crises - is money. In every business there is money for which there is the art market. My answer: None. There is one component - is the man. And he is like water. Put the dam - she still finds the hole, and rushed there. And people during the crisis is out. This is the same Soros made his fortune in times of crisis.

I see other crises, intellectual. People are fleeing for the visually attractive things for a thick oil, some major works. And the gallery went on about, these buyers - made a bet that the easiest sell. Here is a good example - the same Chinese market. I do not think that the work of Chinese artists should cost so much. 2-3 may be well worth the artist, but now the prices on everything. And many things superficial, uninteresting made. A few days ago in China, we saw a bunch of strange Chinese artists, which I would compare to the poor first-rate second College is not even in America, but somewhere in Russia, here is a bad painting is thick ... I say: yes you have that - so low cost. I wonder how many «cheap»? Accountable: 300 thousand dollars! They have some kind of euphoria in China, they think that 300 thousand - it is not enough. And over 300 thousand to buy the masterpieces: five paintings Peter Halley, two paintings by Christopher Wool, and even the work of Richard Prince can still be bought for 300 thousand.

AI: And then the buyers who are Chinese «Masterpieces»? As in Russia - businessmen and bureaucrats? Hardly ...

GT : I think this is just a speculative market for amateurs, with a lot of money. Buy Western investors looking to increase activity of the wealthy Chinese consumers. While they worked. It will continue? So be it. New rich Chinese will still buy it. But to say that all the good that they do - do not. There is a weak work is stronger. However, disparities are enormous. Judge for yourselves: is undervalued work of «old», world-renowned artists such as Frank Stella (Frank Stella), Sol LeWitt (Sol Levitt), Georg Baselitz (Georg Baselitz). So they are cheaper than the average Chinese artists - 2-3 million dollars. While the objective in terms of quality compared to Chinese art, any work of Georg Baselitz should cost then $ 3 billion. My opinion: a little piece Georg Baselitz better than collectively, a good thing all the contemporary Chinese art.

AI: Returning to the crisis. Many fear the psychological crisis - the recession because of the bad mood of the buyers to negotiate with the financial markets.

GT : Do not be a crisis. You say that the bad mood? But, on the contrary, as soon as the bad spirits business, people are in entertainment. And art - this is the best «Entertainment». But if you buy several things stand them, it is quite another, much more fun ... Buying the same Hirst - this is a feeling, based on intelligence rather than a hasty step.

AI: Hirst auction, sale, bypassing galleries done a lot of noise. How do you treat it?

GT : I am absolutely incomprehensible that trick the auction house. I do not want to even comment. You know, that earlier auctions had no right to take bids on items under five years old? Recently, they obnagleli. I know that Chinese artists are painting directly from the shop and put up for auction. These works do not even have provenansa. With respect to the Sotheby's: Three years ago, Damien Hirst new work simply would not have committed the auction, would have feared the noise from the galleries. Now they are not afraid. Auctions behave like monopolists. The problem is that the auction could fail. And how it will respond to the collectors, who spend a long time for this work serious money?

This is not so long ago, Phillips de Pury auction, made with Russian art. It was a nightmarish compilation of Russian art, all have failed. But the attack by young, blow to its reputation were the artists themselves - they can not work with stable prices and to guarantee its customers a smooth growth. We - providers, representing the interests of the artist in the collectors and the press - can not get and make the next exhibition George Condo, placing price of 100 thousand dollars against 500 thousand in the past. Designer longer communicate with us will not. We can only work on its promotion among the collectors, through the press, etc.

Auctions often set lower prices because they only important fact of the sale. And we also call: «Gary does not want to support the work of the artist?». I support artists through our system, not the one where people share the profits, which destroy the market. This is wrong. Previously, a collaboration was a law written that the auctions do not have the right to buy things and to gain funds. They zalezli not on the market, as a result - Sotheby's capitalization of 2.3 billion rolled below 500 million.

AI: Does what we learn from the Chinese in the arts?

GT : What you can learn from the Chinese - is a systems approach. Organization process, team work. That's ancient icons do 5-7 people. One plane board, others are ready levcas third served as a personal letter, and so on. The Chinese divided the whole process to clear parts. There are those who make art, there are those who buy and support their art, but there are those who engage in its promotion, and did a great job so far in this process has not involved the U.S. and other foreign investors. Now, these already interested Gagosyan and other major galleries ... Chinese razdrakonili entire world - brought up their self-respect. Chinese curators have found a common language with the curators of American and European, had a major exhibition. Our curators have been unable to convey the significance of Russian art to Western consumers. Therefore turned out that the Russian art collectors are buying mostly Russian and Chinese are buying 99 percent of western investors. A Chinese team on the principle of Hollywood: at each location must be a professional. And we have engaged in the art, until recently, an amateur - the people who do not have any catalogs or an interesting promotion. But always wanted for him a lot of money, just tens of millions, not investing, even hundreds of thousands. And the Chinese vice-versa. The first 100 thousand - they built a hangar 5 thousand square meters. There are 2 million - to build a hangar studio 20 thousand square meters. Clusters are concentrated in the outskirts of Beijing. And the public land, building on leased land. Sami galleries - amazing place. Everything was done to create a visual comfort. Around a lot of greenery. Guides remarkable. What they have done for 3-4 years, is impressive. People are industrious. They work for some funny money, and gratuity are not asked to, smiling, and honest. Felt, that has done much for the idea, not because of money. Actually, I did a long time such a strong impression is not produced.

AI: What's so surprising? This is a known thing: as soon as the boom begins, there is effective demand, so just take off the price of art.

GT : Not quite so. Here we have more billionaires than there. But we do not have a sufficient number of internationally recognized artists. Tell me what the important museums of the world were solo or group exhibitions of Russian artists? What international projects involving our artists? In no. Biennial - a private shops: who wants it and is involved - from each side of corn. But in the world projects? And the Chinese are involved.

AI: What do you buy for yourself? The works of artists which hang in your home?

GT : I'm hanging the same as in the gallery. From what is not here, in addition hang George Condo, Richard Prince, Damien Hirst. The program of the gallery - this is what you are convinced you that confidence to convey the public. In fact, the case for the gallery itself. As in the head - even in the gallery.

AI: The question of interest to investors. As rising prices Kondo?

GT : The prices of Kondo added 70-80 per cent per annum. But we know that all about. If we believe that the Condo is now, for example, a million dollars, can you buy in China for one million working artist with a reputation as a museum, like a Condo? For the money in China you can buy only local artist's drawing. Moreover, the Chinese art is a place worth it. With Indian artists now the same. For example, Subodh Gupta (Subodh Gupta). Last year, its price increases threefold. Now his sculptures sold for a million dollars. I remember as recently Anselm Reyle increased in price during the year five times. But it is then recorded. Condo With what is happening is that: some of his work sold expensive - about a million dollars. Other smaller works - 200, 300, 400 thousand dollars. This defines the professional market. No euphoria, as the Chinese, when the sweep everything. And then selectively pick up people, like a mosaic, depending on the size, etc. The artist can not be smooth. Here is the Chinese art even today. Pictures of 2 x 2 meters traced as if the painter had been ordered. Condo And not even the artist. This shows his temper on finding creative, and I love it. In my opinion, an artist with a visual biography should be attractive and cost much more. Another point is that the figurative genre of the grotesque. Generally, if you take on big: how many significant artists working today in the figurative genre? Lucian Freud (Lusien Freud), Peter Doig (Peter Doig), Georg Baselitz (Georg Baselitz), John Currin (John Karrin) - and all, perhaps.

AI: What is currently fashionable in contemporary art, which was slow to buyers?

GT : Making a bet on fashionable artists are not correct. Many smoet, it has been, and not once. This «cleaning crisis» in 1990, of course, will not. After all, when dealers are buying, and now people who do not depend on the influx of money and sales. These people do not depend on the success of these things on the market. Today, for many of the 100 millionth collection - this is entry into society. Viktor Pinchuk, for example, has become one of the most popular people of Eurasian continent. It is very correctly held its PR strategy, has selected the best players, the best partners, has formed a good collection. He moved his steps, and Ukraine in the world. His purchases were timely, in some areas it was the same pioneer.

AI: I looked at your bookshelf: it catalogs the most «correct» artists?

GT : Go by name? Georg Baselitz - one of the key people XX - XXI centuries. For me, Baselitz - this is a criterion for eternity in European art. Neo Rauch (Neo Rauch) is much better than all the Chinese artists together, but some of them are sold at 7-8 million, and Neo Rauch at the maximum auction price just under a million dollars. Jonathan Meese (Jonathan Meeze) - this is a notable artist, but the question how long he would stay. This is a new figure and how it can evolve, change, yet the big question. Yang Shaobin (Yang Shaobin) - an artist of the top ten Chinese artists. But not five. His all time compared to Francis Bacon (Francis Bacon). But there is no direct reference to the fact that it deforms, at what he thinks. There is some porridge, when the energy is poured into one another, but so far little intellectual content. For instance, Yue Minjun (Yue Mintszyun) - this is more vylizannaya form of Chinese pop art. In general, looking at Chinese art business, you begin to understand: what we sell, but rather an educational program. What should be and what is not necessary to watch. I am not talking only about myself - talking about the world's galleries. Many of them have even ceased to be part of business because of the product that they sell - is more than money.

interview recorded Vladimir Bogdanov ( vladbog@artinvestment.ru )